The rise and fall of the headless apps

By Shao128 on 19 Sep 2013 12:36 pm EDT
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It was just over 5 weeks ago that BlackBerry released the Gold 10.2 SDK to developers which was to include support for headless apps.  I had planned on writing this article right after the release to update everyone on how headless apps would work.  However, I wasn't expecting to have to write a negative article about it which is why I held off until now, hoping that BlackBerry would release more information or updates. 

I've spoken to many developers about the state of headless apps and much of their feedback was used to write this article.  I chose to write this under my name and leave their names out of it as they some of the top developers on the BlackBerry platform and they don't want to stir the pot.  I'm writing this because it needs to be said - sometimes BlackBerry needs tough love to get things done. 

For those not familiar with the term 'headless' they are apps that can run without an Active Frame.  It was one of the most frequently requested features by both users and developers.  Unfortunately BlackBerry didn't seem to hear us and have made headless apps into something neither practical or efficient for most developers to implement.  In fact they've made it so difficult and complex to implement most of the developers I've spoken to about it aren't going add headless support to their apps.  

So what went wrong?  Lets start at the beginning. 

There are 2 types of headless apps: triggered and non triggered long running

Triggered headless apps can start based on a predefined event that occurs, there are 4 such events:

  • Push - which has always been there and requires the developers to set up a push server
  • SMS – received on a specific port (this is not normal SMS messages)
  • Geofence – device enters/leaves a specific physical location
  • System start up – App can run when the system boots

So these could be useful in theory, but there's a catch.  The app can only run for 20 seconds once triggered and then will be shut down by the OS.  There are more caveats which I will explain later.

Long running headless apps sounds more like what every one was waiting for.  The idea behind long run headless apps is that they can run in the background at all times and not be shut down by the OS after 20 seconds.  There are restrictions on how much CPU the app can use when it is in the background and also memory limitations.  Long run apps can use up to 3MB of RAM which severely cripples functionality developer can add.  On top of that, long run headless need to be approved by BlackBerry.  I applied for my app Wallpaper Changer HD to be a long run headless app.   Wallpaper Changer doesn't need an Active Frame at all.  Currently I have the option for a battery meter or weather in the frame but both those are displayed on the SuperBar on the home screen with my app so it's redundant.  I was one of the first developers to apply 5 weeks ago when the form went live - I have yet to hear back. 

Simply put headless apps require you to split your app into 2 apps

Diving a little further into the technical issues surrounding headless apps the biggest issue developers I've spoken to have is that headless apps require a major re-write of code.  Simply put headless apps require you to split your app into 2 apps.  The 'logic' portion of the app that needs to run in the background needs to be put into 1 app and the UI portion goes into another app.  That alone poses a huge problem, firstly because as it stands headless apps can't be debugged properly and secondly because many apps have their logic and UI tightly bound together and splitting them would break many things.  Not to mention any logic that is written in QML  (Cascades) cannot be used in a headless app and would need to be re-written in C/C++.  This creates even more work when a developer needs to continue support for OS 10.1, they would then have to maintain 2 completely separate code bases. 

So lets say a developer is willing to jump through these hoops and split their app up, there is another issue. The headless portion and UI portion have no efficient way of communicating with each other.  A couple of weeks ago BlackBerry released a Tic Tac Toe game as an example of a headless app to help developers learn.  The way the headless portion of the app communicates with the UI is through a network socket.  What this means is that the UI app opens a network connection and listens for incoming requests.  The headless portion then sends information over the network connection to the UI.  One word can describe this – terrible. 

It seems that BlackBerry doesn't even want developers to use headless apps

Moving on from the technical nightmare it seems that BlackBerry doesn't even want developers to use headless apps.  To me it feels like they released it like this just so that they could say headless apps exist fully knowing that most developers wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.  After the the Gold 10.2 SDK was release BlackBerry held a webcast for developers outlining the changes and improvements in 10.2.  The webcast was 2 hours long and they literally spent a couple of minutes of that talking about headless apps.  For being one of (if not the most) requested features, this immediately set off alarms for many, including myself, that headless was doomed from the beginning.  BlackBerry has also released next to no documentation on implementing headless applications.  I was hoping after 5 weeks would would have seen something more. 

Now don't get me wrong - I understand the fundamental reason BlackBerry is trying to restrict background apps.  They don't want apps running wild in the background sucking up battery.  However I think they've gone about it completely the wrong way.   To me and many other the choice should be the users. 

One simple way to give everyone what they wanted we have been as simple as something like this: 

When a user presses and holds on the X on an Active Frame a notification pops up asking if they user if they want to close the app or hide the Active Frame.  If the user hides the Active Frame, add a new badge to the app icon to let the user know the app is still running.  If the user clicks the icon the app opens back up.   If the user was willing to let the app run in an active frame what is the difference if the frame is visible or not?  If BlackBerry is still worried about apps sucking up battery then if an apps active frame is hidden and the OS detects that the app is using at lot of battery then notify the user and let the user decide to close the app or continue to let it run.  What do you think of this idea?  Let us know in the poll.

The problem has been and may always be that they do whatever they think we may need instead of just listening and giving us what we really need

So to summarize I really think BlackBerry needs to re-evaluate the state of headless apps.  In the past their typical response to developers would be that its already great but they are working to improve things and changes will happen in the future.  But this time around I think the right thing for them to do is step up and say they really screwed this one up.   Scrap headless apps as they exist and start over – this time listening to what developers have to say.  If I may quote a developer friend of mine, I think he summed up headless apps perfectly: “I gathered from the description on the DevBlog and my previous discussions with development that they would make it so useless that it would end up being a waste of time for everyone.   The problem has been and may always be that they do whatever they think we may need instead of just listening and giving us what we really need.”

Topics: Developers

Reader comments

The rise and fall of the headless apps

497 Comments

This explains a lot I keep trying to support BB but they seem to work hard to drive me off. I was fine putting up with open active frames as a temp measure, knowing headless apps were coming. But this means they will continue and leave the OS as an unfinished product. Makes me wonder if the OS will continue to evolve.

I was planning a Z30 but now I guess I will have to reevaluate

BlackBerry refuses to change for the better and are content with being incompetent (wow that rhymed). They need to get their act together because sometimes I feel they just don't give a flying f*ck.

via CB10 (BB Z10 : BLK : OS 10.1) [ Channel @ C0012477B for BB News, MMA & Tech Updates ]

Isn't Whatsapp headless or am I missing something here? What's the difference between the way Whatsapp works and what others want to do? I actually like the fact that apps have to get approved and not everything can run headless. Imagine an Android port running headless, eating away at your battery. People already bitch about battery life.

Other than wallpaper changing apps, what other apps need to run headless? I think we need to know this in order to really understand the purpose.

I believe WhatsApp uses Push, so it isn't really running in the background. Messages get pushes to the device and the app opens when you click on the message.

Another couple of examples I can think of are alarm clock apps and those LED light customization apps. Both of these would benefit from being headless.

Posted via CB10

The bottom line here is that consumers want the functionality that headless apps can provide.

A solution should have been included in the UX from the start. I don't even know if it was considered. What was their original plan to control headless apps in the UX?

One of my favourite app on BB7 (which I still carry along with the Q10) is PuZZed. PuZZed is a useful alarm app that gets me out of bed every morning because you need to do tasks in order to shut it off like solve maths exercises (and by then you're well awake). I've contacted the developer in the past and he told me they wont develop it unless they can make use of headless apps.

I have my Torch 9850 plugged in in my bedroom just so I can still have PuZZed. That app has been a God send and I paid for the full version (as in all of the added puzzles). I would love to be able to have it on my Z10 as well. Until I read your post I was a little indifferent on the topic of headless apps. Now I want headless apps and I believe Shao has what I had in mind pinned with a good working process that would be up to the user to decide. Maybe we should submit this thread to BlackBerry.

Posted From My Amazing Z10 via CB10 Z10STL100-4/10.2.0.1323

Was a big fan of Puzzed myself and was holding off buying/downloading the LED customization apps until they were headless.

Signed via my weapon of choice, Z10.

I totally agree. I was also a user of Puzzed. I want it badly but I don't see it coming any time soon with the current state of affairs

Posted via CB10

LED lights should be incorporated into the native OS but isn't. Why would BBRY make anything that is even remotely innovative? They're perfectly happy reveling in mediocrity.

Posted via CB10

Whatsapp is most definitely a long-running headless app, and it functions flawlessly in this regard. They don't hit this supposed 3MB limit, so why should other developers have issues staying under it?

Bbm is BlackBerry. They really don't care about Whatsapp.

BlackBerry will survive in the Corporate and Government Sectors! My Z10 is so much better than an iphone!

>BlackBerry refuses to change for the better and are content with being incompetent

That's what you get for trying save money by hiring cheap indian developers.

I'm an Indian and take offense to your comment. We are neither cheap nor petty in any sense. Please take your fcking head from the sand.

A more accurate comment might be that the execs doing the decision making are focused on saving money and there are many North American agencies making inroads moving this work and the associated funds... offshore. It seems win win doesn't it?.

With rigorous Project Management that could be the case however, the exec decison-makers cheap out there as well so in many cases the off shore product is shit. Yup, that's not a typo: shit.

I clean up shit from India offshore development every day. I get to fire them off the project as well and steadily making a business case to fire the resource managers and agencies. Just takes time.

Posted via CB10

I think Blackberry is doing the right thing to restrict background apps. They not only use a lot of battery, but they also slow down the phone. You mention that users should have a choice, that would be great of we lived in a Utopia where everyone checks and reads all features in an OS, but the reality is that most people fail to even close active frames. This will create more unsatisfied users because the phone will die faster or start lagging.

The solution you present is one of the worst ones I've ever heard. You suggest that we add a dialog everytime someone wants to close an app?This will make closing apps a 3 step process: Swipe from the bottom, press X, and then choose "headless/close". You have to get out of your developer bubble and understand that Blackberry is here to appeal to consumers as well.

The reality is that there are probably a handful of apps that need headless option and a Wallpaper app is not one of them. Blackberry is doing the right thing, they are bringing headless apps, but they have to approve them to make sure they are actually necessary. I like how Blackberry is thinking about user experience first.

Btw, I am a developer.

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Presenting users with options is often a failure of the designer to pick the right option. Not always, but this is often the case. The solution Shao added here is complex and unnecessary. The user shouldn't have to decide to make an app headless. The app is either headless or not. You don't want to have to remember to start your wall paper changer and then put it in the background when you reboot your phone. Or your podcast app, or your rss reader, or your alarm clock app. You should install them and from then on, you shouldn't have to think about if they are running or not. The solution the BlackBerry designed accomplishes this just fine.

But according to Shao128 (according to his own experience and other developers), the parameters BlackBerry has set for the developer to create a headless app sounds more complex to me than what he has suggested.
I think his main point really is that what BlackBerry has offered isn't user friendly to developers and little if no developer is going to bite. Is that what any of us want? I get that not every app needs to be headless, but if the process to make one is that labour intensive then its quite possible that apps which should be headless (regardless of how few) will never get it.
Bottom line is......that's a bad thing.

I respectfully disagree with you on this one. I really like the idea of having the option to close or effectively "minimize" an app. If your concern is that the process of closing an app would become too involved, couldn't there be two separate actions? For example, maybe swiping up on the active frame (ala Playbook) hides it and tapping on the X closes the app completely. Having a notification when an app is causing significant battery drain, etc. is something I would personally find useful anyway (in fact, I think even a 3rd party app some form of this functionality would do quite well, if possible.) Bottom line is, it's pretty clear the current state of headless app development is a problem. Well written, honest article.

Posted via CB10

I'm just afraid we will end up with a situation similar to legacy BB where apps ran in the background and most people never closed them or even knew how to close them, causing the phone to slow to a crawl and a bad end user experience.

Geeze, they designed a whole new OS... incorporate a fail safe for battery hogging apps or an easier way to check what's running or not.

You guys have your head stuck in the sand. One minute I'm reading how bb10 is the best because of this or that, then the next it's all excuses.

Posted via CB10

Agree 100000000% on this one swipe up to hide and press X to close easy as apple pie. Might be hell on code writing and rewrites.

Zed 10 - 10.2.0.1047. In your face VZW

Or, bottom right will have x to close it and bottom left will have - button to minimize it. App name can remain on bottom middle.

Well said. The active frame model is flawed to begin with, as it only allows 8 apps to be running at a time.

I propose very liberal restrictions for developers but a rigorous review process with dedicated teams to suggest and work with developers to optimize their headless apps. I don't want memory hogs and inefficient applications running in the background and so I would trust BlackBerry to vet the apps ahead of time.

Posted via CB10

I never run 8 apps. What the f for?

BlackBerry will survive in the Corporate and Government Sectors! My Z10 is so much better than an iphone!

I think Shao128 was saying that a LONG PRESS on the x would pop up the dialogue. A regular press would be a normal close event. So you would really have to know you could do it in order to do it.

Who are you to say that wanting your wallpaper to change automatically without taking up one of your 8 active frame slots is not a valid want?

I agree with Shao's sentiment that making your app headless shouldn't require the developer to jump through a bunch more hoops. All that users want is to not SEE that the app is open. That should be something the OS should be able to handle. BlackBerry pushing it onto the developers seems lazy.

I was simply stating my opinion on the issue, just as Shao stated his opinion. Please refrain from personal attacks.

Because if I was to debate like you do I could say the same thing "who are you or Shao to say how Blackberry should implement Headless Apps?" You must learn that all posts are people's personal opinion.

To add to the discussion. Another reason to restrict headless apps is for security. apps that are constantly running in the background could potentially record everything you are doing..

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If you download an app and keep it running and it records whatever you're doing what is the difference?

It wasn't a personal attack, I'm sorry you took it that way.

The thing is, that certain people don't read instructions or follow basic guidelines should not deter BlackBerry from enabling something that MOST zed and Q owners have been anticipating since purchasing their phones. Why punish the consumer over a few incompetent users? Options, options, options. Not restrictions. This OS, while amazing, is already quite limited in certain things legacy has incorporated for many generations now.

Posted from my ZED10

suggestion : fast tap closes, long press opens option ...
Not really defending the hiding, but on the UI side, can be handled pretty simply, IMHO

I believe the idea was that press and hold would bring up the dialog box. This would be less invasive. I respect your viewpoint, and if we were all isheep, I agree. But I feel that we are sophisticated enough to handle the proverbial length of rope without hanging ourselves.

Posted via CB10

I think a quick "tap" would still close the app and a "touch and hold" would then bring up the hide or not option box. At least that's the way it should be...

I agree. Although your understanding of his purposed solution is wrong. He purposed tapping and holding before the option for headless mode was displayed. I still agree with every thing you said. That design is poorly thought out. The complaints presented are basically, have to write app logic in c++, hard to debug (not sure I understand this), must use IPC to communicate with UI app (possibly via a socket).

I too am a developer. Not a mobile developer though, but I don't see anything wrong with BlackBerry's approach here. Maybe they need to build some libraries to make communicating with headless apps more seamless, but this seems like a solid foundation. All of the basics are there. I don't know how other platforms implement this kind of thing, but BlackBerry's approach seems like a solid start.

And that's exactly why we have thousands of, correction - hundreds of, correction dozens of ; I'm sorry that's not right, we have NO HEADLESS APPS.

Must be because BB has made it so easy for developers. Or reasonably easy? I don't know what the fk most of you people do to earn a living, in my circles, results are all that matter. The result of BB's actions is that 8 months post release, there are no headless apps, and apparently most of the apps people are hoping to see go headless either are not coming or certainly not coming soon.

We have no headless apps because they weren't supported until 10.2, which isn't even out yet. What are you talking about?

It's a good point of view but what about Android ports? They run all willy nilly all over the place. Bloody skype signs me back in every 5 hours if I don't shut down the app using a third party Android app manager. It's dumb. So Developers that choose the easy route and port an Android app don't have to care? They don't get scrutinized like the Native developers? There has to be a viable way for the user to control both Android and Native apps. Not only does it keep Native developers from working twice as hard but it gives control to the user. BBOS7 gave some accountability to users but not all. WhatsApp almost destroyed my 9900 after it decided it needed to run in the background at 100% CPU usage for 30 minutes straight after not using it or having it run at all for 3 months. It got hot enough to cause damage. I have not used WhatsApp since. Never even seen it on my Q10. Most users would just blame BlackBerry because they would have no obvious clue as to what was causing the issue. Giving them obvious indications as to what they have chosen to run in the background gives a user a lot of control and accountability. As for having to load up your fave apps at startup. How about have that in the app permissions or something in the 10.2 app manager. Load at startup. Customization to some degree makes us better and more productive and the device becomes more suited to an individual's needs.

I had a similar experience with WhatsApp. I installed it at another's request and got battery issues only after running it, and forever thereafter. It is now gone and will not be coming back. The issue went with it.

Excuse me but I am a huge fan of Wallpaper Changer HD. It makes my device mine. It does need to be headless. I don't like keeping any active frame open but I need this wallpaper app Headless. Also call blocker apps and SMS Blocker apps are other examples of Headless apps needed. I have used Wallpaper Changer Pro for a very long time and it now lies dormant in one of my folders just waiting for an update to Headless. Thanks BlackBerry for hurt this dev and for hurting me as a user and stopping me from making my BlackBerry mine. Or should I call you Apple!

I believe he mentioned a long press of X in his blog to initiate the headless option. With something like this implemented a quick press will still get you the result we have currently.

THANKS! It's amazing how people run around and say BlackBerry is dumb, and they really don't have a clue about anything. Meanwhile BlackBerry is protecting these people from themselves.....

BlackBerry will survive in the Corporate and Government Sectors! My Z10 is so much better than an iphone!

I agree. BlackBerry must decide on the applications. I don't have to start worrying about which application is devouring the battery life in the background

you read wrong, he said long-press the X on the active frame, then make your choice. it changes nothing how you function in the OS currently. i think it's a great suggestion.

I certainly do see where BlackBerry is coming from as well. They are concerned about users unknowingly impacting both their battery life and the OS performance by having far too many memory and battery draining headless apps running all the time. I can see how they'd want to scrutinize those in a way that may be unpopular with developers. I think it's the only way to maintain the reputation of the devices (BlackBerry is known for having good battery life).

Let's face it. When a phone's battery drains quickly, no one says, "Boy. The developer of that weather app that I've installed on my Android should not have set the default to update the 10 day forecast for every major city every 15 minutes because it's really murder on the battery!" Instead, they'll say that the battery life on the device sucks.

The solution that was proposed sounded nuts...until I re-read it. His proposal is that the X to close an app works as it does today, UNLESS a user presses and HOLD the X. In that case, the option would appear to either hide the active frame or close the app. And by adding a badge to the app icon (possibly a nearly dead battery icon!), it serves as a reminder that the app is running...and draining the battery!

I don't necessarily think that's a bad idea. It's not much different than simply letting the active frame continue to run- except it's now hidden by the user (so that the active frame screen isn't cluttered).

I agree w/the developer about the inefficient way in which headless apps has been deployed- requiring separation of the app, different code base, etc. That seems just plain mean :-). I have no issue w/limiting the amount of memory that headless apps can consume. I delete apps that use up too much memory and inhibit my ability to multi task by selfishly using all of the resources!

Based on the difficulty that BB is having attracting developers to the platform at the moment, and the fact that a non-existent app eco-system is the #1 complaint from reviewers of BB10, they should be willing to do whatever they can to retain existing developers and attract many, many more. Seems like this move is doing the opposite.

good explinasion, and i agree but i think you're getting shao wrong, he's not sayign the dialog should come up when the x is pressed hes saing if the x is held for a period of time it could bring the option to hide the frame, which i agree is a good idea

i agree that most apps don't require a headless feature but an app such as a malware/spyware scanner or anti virus tool or system optimizer would be an app that would require headless abilities and would also be good that the app is loaded at start up rather then having to reboot the app every time the phone is rebooted.

Exactly, I was going to post this a few months ago. I really hoped they would take their time and implement this safely. Headless apps are what could kill a system. Imagine a memory leak!! You would lose all your free memory without doing a thing! They learned their lessons from BlackBerry legacy. Reboots were almost mandatory every few weeks.

I'm glad they took the safe route.

Posted via CB10

I agree whole heartedly. This may be a situation where BlackBerry is damned if they do damned if they don't, however, BlackBerry made the right decision by putting us first this time.

Posted via CB10

I think Shao did say a LONG press on the X would give the option to hide or fully close the app. So the app closing process will not change, just prompt on long press.

I was also thinking that Shao's suggestion of a badge is a good one, but there should be an extra screen on the Home screen to the left or right of the Active Frames screen, that consolidates all the badged icons for apps running without frames: they shouldn't be relocated from where they normally are, but rather "duplicated" with a badge, so all the headless apps can be viewed at a glance without digging 10 levels down into the setting menu... long press on the app to see a 'toast' with the resource usage and estimated battery drain, and from there you can close the headless portion of the app if you want.

Getting to the Hub is already just swipe up and right, so having an extra screen to the left of the Active Frames screen wouldn't introduce too much inconvenience.

Absolutely agree.
Linus Torvalds said, that he would be happy to bring kernel development culture into the user space, as most of developers are such a newbies and doing such a silly things, which breaks everything. So BB is actually forcing control of how OS is used. This is the right way to go in dangerous areas.
Being a telecom developer I perfectly know how stupid can user-end development be. Please, let guys who know system much better to guide you how to do things right.

You want a mobile computing - do the computing on server and push a notification to the phone when it is ready. Phone is not for a heavy calculations, it's not a toy, it's to keep you connected with other people.

Exactly. If I want Android, I can get Android. But what I want from BlackBerry is a reliable, long lived communications device with a long battery life, easily replaceable battery and external storage, efficient messaging, and a number of useful on-demand applications. I don't want to find myself installing something that thinks it is so important it has to run in the background all the time and use up battery. When I look, for instance, at what Windows 8 seems to need to run just to show me a desktop, I'm appalled. How can you make a secure system with so many services running, some of which seem there to do pretty pointless things?
I may be a minority, but I like the Q10 because its battery life is twice that of an iPhone, I can type fast on it and the call quality is excellent. I don't want that to be degraded by ever more services.

These are the articles that I come to Crackberry for, the ones that push and tell BBRY what users want. I dont need to see case deals, or even podcasts on why 'phablet mobile computing will be the future'. A blog should be the summation of all ideas on the forums to bring it into one good place where someone from BBRY gets a spark or idea and brings it forward. If anyone reads this far -- I agree with you completely Shao and BBRY needs a push there are so many things that are not being addressed on the blogs. So many people are saying just wait features will come etc etc etc... But in my mind there are features that are still not here and sometimes its scary because as you say people keep hoping until the point of 'doomed from the beginning' sets in and we are quickly required to just 'get over it'.

-Headless Apps were huge - now gone?!
-Still No Landscape for homescreen, yet Hub, BBM, Browser etc (Confusing)
-BB10 Bridge is a fail
-Miracast was a hardware limitation -- but again people were upset we bought the device at a high cost so blackberry could survive.
-Still no dock, where is my cool dock that I used to be able to 'set and forget' charging/bedside. Also with NFC they could make an amazing dock instead I have to buy some ebay thing, thats going to ruin my ports?
-Vibration - 2 short vibes, or 1 long. A feature that is easy to implement but gone.
10.2 is amazing, But I feel like what was given to us wasn't an update it was a list of the features that should have been there from the start.
-BBM - No video/screenshare(I'll let this go)/voice. What BBRY didn't do is a way to implement and easy move wizard whatsapp to BBM. I mean a quick app that would broadcast the link to BBM to all users on whatsapp -- or whatever, Also now think like a android/iOS user... They are used to whatsapp, LINE, KIK, etc. What tangible differences are there between BBM and KIK or LINE. BB Users are selling it based solely on that fact that we are lonely... 'If you like me get it'... It develops into a whatsapp and BBM running side by side and thats when the iOS/android user will decide which is better and go with one. The above features video/voice NEED to be there.

There are SO MANY angry people now-- and my first BB 7290, member since 2008. I've been scouring the forums for a very long time I've observed alot. And Crackberry, the forums, even BBRY has changed into this 'like it or leave it' attitude -- I fear this is not the right attitude.

I love blackberry as I said I've been around and even have a lot of friends that work there -- the fact of the matter is the they aren't head-on against the market and rely too much on the fan base. We can't be their sole market strategy BBM4ALL needs way more exposure. Remember if there is no development for bbapps the situation will only get worse, but I'll get back to the original starting sentance. If bloggers, and forums, and BBRY discussions, BetaZones' etc dont shape up and start posting real news like this.

"It's all of us that are contributing to the downfall, stop being prideful people, be constructive, be opinionated, and try to help out fellow BB10 platform users."

They've forgotten that BlackBerry should have Super Apps - anyone remember the commercials for Super Apps?

Well said. BlackBerry does need more constructive feedback. They do get an earful from us, but we tend to defend them just as often as we criticize them- if not more.

It's sort-of like politics: does your elected representative represent YOU to the GOVERNMENT, or does it represent the GOVERNMENT to YOU? The right answer is both, but at the end of the day: the GOVERNMENT works for the PEOPLE, not the other way around... but I think it goes without saying that if BlackBerry worked "for the people" rather than trying to push their own ideas of what works and what doesn't on people unilaterally, they wouldn't be in the position they're in.

Ugh, yes, me too . . I kept hearing headless apps were coming, but never suspected this "sleight of hand" approach. I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill, or throw the baby out with the bathwater, but dang I was really looking forward to this . . almost a deal-breaker, maybe, idk, guess more disappointed than angry, but still . . . ugh

I think letting us choose is the right way, BlackBerry has a track record of not listening to users.

I like youffr thought of a new badge on the icon however I would like a new active frame with all the icons of all the headless apps that are running. So with one you save no space in the active frames but with 2 or more you do and you don't forget them because the active frame with the icon is always there.

Posted via CB10

I really don't know if the situation is that dire. :) I am doing just fine without headless apps and I kind of like the fact that on my BB10 I know what is running at all times.

Now the easy way for BlackBerry to have "background apps" would be to just create an additional active frames screen, that was only the standard icons. They could do this on the current active frames screen and just swipe up from the bottom to see the apps running in the background. These would be displayed with the current smaller icon (from the homescreen). There you could exit the app or "reboot" or perhaps force a "refresh".

Perhaps there could be a way to send an active frame to the background.

This would require little to no re-writes of code from the devs. There would be little changed about the function of the OS too with the exception of maybe some code to make sure certain apps start at boot or based on other criteria.

What they have developed seems fairly convoluted.

After being incompetent for so long, why would they change? Especially when the company will be up for sale in 2 months.

Posted via CB10

It explained nothing.

Headless is just fine, I use it as a developer.

He is complaining about headless apps running headless without a UI and that he can't use full resources.

Those are both good things.

Also. You can program UI into it, you just need to know what your doing. This post is just a bunch of opinions...

Posted via CB from my LE

You take the words right out of my mouth! No headless apps means no interest of the consumer for purchasing apps. No sold apps means no interest of developers to work for OS10. No extension of app-supply means shrinking competiveness of BB.... means continuing to reach the object of the play: billions of dollars gratuity for Heins... To ignore this particular aspect of an OS (ability for headless running apps) means to betray the hole thing and to give a sh*t to the customers...
Yesterday I´m looking forward for my new Z30, but now (with this fuc*ing infos) I´m sure, that my Z10 will be the last BB!
Slowly but surely I believe there´s is a curse/hex over BB that the CEO´s and his board are either 1.) are not able to walk and chew gum at the same time or 2.) rats who try to sink the ship for leaving it eventual with stuffed wallets.... OS10 means obviously OrganisationSucks (index) 10!

And this is why I now have an S4. I got tired of this kind of stuff. And before I get called a troll I'm still hoping that blackberry gets their act together so I can come back. There are some things I miss so bad in my old trusty z10 but the company's inability to listen to their customers and developers makes it hard to support a company who won't support us. I'm enjoying the s4 only because everything that I needs works. The simple banking and pharmacy apps exist. DAMMMIT I want my old blackberry back. I just won't invest in them until I see things like this change. Struggling for apps but won't give the developers what they need? Crazy. Simply crazy

I'll explain it to you: they f@cked up again. Forget headless apps.

That goes along the fact that PIM with Outlook is so basic that it's non existent and that parting from BIS made the majority of my integrated accounts (11) non push.
The boat is sinking faster and faster.

@Dave79

I am sure BlackBerry will take some of this very public feedback and do something about it. Not every initial release is gold remember Apples new Maps? That didn't go over well, but they supported the product and made it better.

Well you can always use MS Exchange with Active Sync too. BIS was expensive for BB and just made things messier on the carrier end. BlackBerry certainly doesn't need any resistance from carriers.

You know what? I'm done. This is the last piece of broken promise crap I will take from this joke of a company.
And they wonder why the major apps stay away from them!!??
The sooner this company is sold off and becomes nothing more than a tiny software developer the better.
Screw you BlackBerry. You couldn't deliver on something if your lives depended on it.

CB10 on my Z10

Are you a developer? if so, talking to BB Support about the problem is likely to bring resolve rather than venting on a blog site. If enough people complain things are more likely to get done. If you are just a customer, than this doesn't concern you as much. Developers are not staying away from BB because of headless apps. That is the dumbest thing I have heard. It is also not because of developer support (they have vastly improved in this area). It comes down to business; developers will support whatever platform will keep them in business.

I think the point was devs arnt coming to BBRY because they never follow through. Which you have to admit we have been victims of many times.

I love BBRY and my Z10 but to say my confidence in Thorsten hasn't diminished at all would be a lie. I rallied for him and I think we all did, but he's letting us down these days.

Still hanging on, but the water is starting to come into the boat from where im sitting.

The whole fact that BB10 is out is proof positive that BB follows through, they always late and a buck short but they do follow through. :)

And BlackBerry has no business!
The new model is failing and by making it harder for devs to give the customers what they want, how the heck do they expect to get their footing back?
It's a little like the PlayBook OS all over again.
BlackBerry tested it, didn't like it and so moved on with out so much as a "oops, we got this wrong".
Now it's headless apps. They've tried it, realised they don't work like they thought they might and now they want us all to move on like they never said anything about it in the first place.
It's a joke.

CB10 on my Z10

Everything he said was exactly spot-on. Instead of working on features to get them right, Blackberry tries, fails, and moves on as if the platform's future didn't depend on it.

It's been long accepted that the lack of developer support is killing the platform and alienating the developers by over-promising, under-delivering, and ignoring the problem, hoping it will go away, is digging the hole faster than pissing off individual consumers ever could.

And Apple was failing before the iPod. Took them a few years to correct course and many of the same accusations about BlackBerry were levied against Apple.

And now we're in a new age of technology where the consumer and enterprise for that matter has even less patience than back then. The reality is BlackBerry has less rope to work with than Apple ever did. They need to deal with it.

Posted via CB10

How in the world can you say if someone is just a customer it doesn't concern them? It may be a developer problem, but it's a problem for the dev precisely because the customers/users want them to make headless apps! To be more accurate the customer probably doesn't have a clue what a headless app is, but they sure as heck know that they don't want an active frame open just to run a wallpaper changer/superbar app. I understand the complexities involved, but to say that this doesn't concern the customer is quite short-sighted and borderline ignorant.

@Revtech

At the end of the day it has a limited impact on the Apps you use every day. Suggesting this is a reason to leave the platform (the one you bought into without headless apps) is ridiculous.

Careful pal, I never said anything about leaving the platform, I was responding to someone above who said this was of no concern to the customer . . .

Lol! I needed a chuckle after reading all these comments.

Posted while peeking and flowing on my incredible BBQ10!

@ciprianmureasan & @Dave79

Drama queen much there guys? LOL You are sounding like Divas, go pick up a snickers bar.

I am repeating myself here...

At the end of the day it has a limited impact on the Apps you use. Suggesting this is a reason to leave the platform (the one you bought into without headless apps) is ridiculous.

If you people want an Android or iPhone get one. If you stuck around with BlackBerry it wasn't for the apps or the headless apps. So getting pissed about what your platform is TODAY, when you knew that DAY 1 is just stupid and unproductive IMHO.

The BB10 phones are great phones, even without headless apps they hold up well to the competition. The app selection isn't the best, but it's just a damned phone people. It doesn't have to cure leprosy and raise people from the dead. :)

What is ridiculous is that you think since I bought it without headless apps that I should expect it to remain that way.

Posted via CB10

I'm sad to say I will likely be doing the same when my contract is up in November. This feature, as well as a few key apps would have changed my mind, but all seem to be interminably MIA.

I'll stay active on Mobile Nations, likely over at Android Central. I'll definitely continue to follow Crackberry, in the hopes that BB has some sort of revelation and the platform becomes what it should be.

I'm not, but I know enough about the features and apps available to know that they aren't going to meet my needs, just as my 9900 is not.

I held out as long as I could, and hope that the situation changes, but for now, that's just how it is...

WHY CAN WE NOT REPORT THESE POSTS ? ? ?
We should be able to report these. Thats it CrackBerry is dead. This is the last piece of crap I take from CrackBerry. S#$%w you Crackberry. You couldnt deliver on this if your lives depended on it.

Sorry Kevin, just making a point.

Note: Watch me get reprimanded for this method of making my point to the user above, but sf49ers1980 will still be allowed to troll and spread his constant negativity on this site.

I would argue that my comments are negative when necessary and positive when required. All you've just done is make yourself look foolish.

But thanks for the constructive criticism...

CB10 on my Z10

You are entitled to your opinion. And I am entitled to mine.

My opinion is that you are negative and overly dramatic. You are contributing to the negativity around BlackBerry and hence to their current state of affairs. But hey, your original comment was VERY constructive (note the sarcasm).

Right. BlackBerry's failures are due to people posting their less-than-glowing opinions of BlackBerry's failures. Makes total sense, because it couldn't possible be BlackBerry's fault, time and time again, now could it?

You seem to be the one getting overly dramatic. If you don't like what he has to say, ignore it and move on.

Many of us share his sentiment, and ignoring the problems won't do anything to fix them. Blind optimism in the face of repeated failure is not a recipe for the betterment of the company. Feel free to start your own comment thread instead of spamming hate at those with criticisms.

I am VERY pro BlackBerry. I go out of my way to try and encourage others to use the platform but by christ this is becoming increasingly more difficult!
How can I sell this to others? I'm not even paid to do it. BlackBerry are and they are doing a monumentally terrible job of it!
I get frustrated because I care. I will back BlackBerry where I can but, unlike you sir, I will not make myself look like a fool by blindly following a company who continues to lead us down blind ally after blind ally.
That would make me a sheep and then I may as well just go join the apple brigade.

CB10 on my Z10

Well the fact that the Z10 has excellent build quality and specs that don't bottleneck the software is a good place to start.

I think disgruntled playbook owners would take issue with the suggestion that the os doesn’t bottle neck when they were basically told you need 2gb to make it work ;)

Posted via CB10

@sf49ers1980

I am just kind of sick of the phone divas. Like if My Phone doesn't 100% match everyone else's phone I am missing out on something. It's just hella stupid and reeks of an entitlement attitude (which is very unbecoming and seemingly more popular these days).

The suggestions that BlackBerry (at this point in the game) doesn't care about their customers is preposterous. At this point in the game it would have been a HELL of a lot easier to sell of all their Intellectual Property than to deal with a marketplace a whiners crying that their phone isn't cool enough.

Just sick of the whining with every nugget of news. Change your diapers and grow up. :)

@sf49ers1980

Initial releases are always issue prone. Now if BlackBerry completely ignores this feedback you may have a point.

Their way of accessing the APIs for headless is to apply straight to BB for them. PRocess isn't hard but it's done for a security standpoint.

See it IS possible, just takes some work.
People are just too lazy these days and dont want to work for what they get.

I'm not sure that applying for the APIs and not hearing anything back for a month and a half counts as "lazy", per se.

Wait so.. even things like BerryBuzz isn't going to get support by headless apps? Come on. I literally bought it last week specifically for this.

Q10

With ya! I bought Bebuzz Pro and Wallpaper Changer with the assumption that one day they could run headless bc I HATE active frames for apps like that. Some day....psh

I have no fewer than 6 headless apps running on 7.1, and would not even consider jumping to BB10 unless this feature is available or all of the apps' features are baked into the OS. And considering that one of them is AdvanceOS, that's a whole mess of features...

I don't see why they need to be "headless" to function. Not having headless apps lets the user know what is running all the time. I kind of like that about my phone.

I would prefer background apps to headless ones. Give me a secondary Active Frames screen just for Background apps that I can pick and choose to close down.

But essentially isn't what you're suggesting the same as headless apps just a different ui?
BB10 already limits us to having 8 apps open. Having a second screen for background apps is no different then headless.
Don't get me wrong, I actually like the idea but if BlackBerry insists on making devs jump through hoops for headless....what makes a second screen for background apps less of a hurdle?

Posted via CB10

When they're background functionality (call blocking, LED customization, OS task schedulers, visual voicemail, lockscreens, etc) I need them to be running all the time, and definitely don't want visible panes for them.

This is all accomplished in 7.1, but not 10, which is why I have not made the jump.

If you're fine with the way BB10 is, then I'm glad and more power to you, but it just doesn't work for me...

And it's not as if this is the ONLY thing pushing me toward another platform. This is just another proverbial straw alongside constant delays, the Bridge crippling, the PB debacle (yes, I'm a PB user), and the app ecosystem. There are many apps that would improve my day-to-day routine, that are noticeably absent. We were told "wait for BB10. wait for BB10." Well, I waited, and waited. Now my contract is up, I'm switching carriers, and there are plenty of devices on other platforms that have what I want them to have, and do what I want them to do.

It's not personal. I don't think any less of those who love BB10. It just has proven itself to not be for me.

The dev can still do it, Shao was just expressing that it's not the easiest or most friendly process.

- Developer of 'Web Design Cheat Sheet' for BB10 (Posted via CB10)

The problem is the Effort-Reward Imbalance model. Basically, every developer will value his or her time. If the effort (measured in time to make it work), is greater than the reward (compared to efforts in other areas, i.e. iOS or Android), there's no incentive to do it. They will ignore BB, and the ecosystem will stagnate.

Sound familiar? It's been one of BBs biggest obstacles since the beginning of the "app age".

Very few apps even need headless support.. I don't see why you are making it out to be such a universal thing.. Like less than 1% of devs even have any reason to make their app headless, and if those devs can't figure it out, then they don't deserve to have a headless running app in the first place.

BlackBerry is trying to make a secure and powerful/well rounded platform. This takes time, e.g. not just throwing it out there allowing every single dev who think's "hey this would be cool to have my app headless" when there is very little need, is not the way to build a powerful platform. Only the NECESSARY apps should even be headless, most devs don't have to worry about it, it won't affect a dev from switching over if it doesn't affect their app in the first place. People seem to be completely missing the point..

Sounds like the old BlackBerry mentality is still rolling along on their square wheels and wondering why the road is so ruff .

Posted via Z10

I'm not needing headless apps, but why there is no integrated option for led colors?...

And the funny thing. . There are sideloaded android apps that can run in background.

Like a rss feed reader that I had used before the native Google news app.

It could send me new feed information into the hub. :)

Android runtime can do it... but...

Sorry, so funny. ..

Posted via CB10

@Sayumi Whisp

Not sure if they were actually running in the background or if they had some hub integration or perhaps they were using a cloud solution to get the notifications to you.

"Headless Apps" have been built in BlackBerry since it's initial 10.0 launch.. It's not like they just added it in in 10.2.. All they did was unlock full control out to developers.. The reason this took so long is because there are so many other things they have to determine which apps should be allowed access to it because it is a very secure thing to allow devs access to.

The Android Runtime is an application build by BlackBerry, just as the "Alarm" runs "headless" and has since the launch of the phone. "Headless" has always been there built within the infrastructure, so seeing that happen with the android runtime is nothing out of the ordinary.. any Android app is technically running within a BlackBerry app.

I'm done too. I so regret getting TWO z10's. One for me and one for my wife. And I talked family members into getting the new BlackBerry s. And it's been nothing but disappointment, bad news, duplicate contacts, mysterious reboots, faulty updates, no apps of importance.
I So regret getting into the whole BlackBerry thing. I just want to dump my and my wife's phones, apologize to my family members and friends and get an android.
Can someone please tell me how to get rid of my phones. I have them on craigslist and kajiji. But no takers.

Posted via CB10

+1

Lol.. true..

and the Oscars goes to *drum roll*.. tada..! for, "I'm sorry mi familia, goodbye BlackBerry and hello Android"

I think those headless apps are for devs that doesn't want to make extra effort. Ktnxbye.

Posted via CB10

$20? He can get $200 for a single piece...
Just because people are wanting to ditch BB doesn't mean they will give it to people for dirt cheap.

He's stating that both phones are defective, l'll give him $40 and he can use those to buy S4's, Nexus, HTC or whatever Android crap he wants.

Seriously his comment(and most of the comments in this post) is pointless, if you're going to change platforms just do it, don't come to CrackBerry to say or you will be eaten alive by BlackBerry fans.

Also, the world is not falling, if a Dev wants to make his/her app headless they can do it, is harder than it should be but it's possible(and I agree with Shao).

Posted via CB10

It's all about pricing. Z10s in good to excellent shape are going for about $200 US on Ebay. New I've seen going for about $300-$350.

If you really want to get rid of a Z10 price it accordingly. I just picked up a Verizon Z-10 new refurb for $100.

Some users are such idiots they need the big company to protect them ..... but end of day, buyer beware.
I would like the option to hide apps to allow them to run, but its not the end of the world that its not.

I'm sure some Crackberry trolls are going to post that the world is now ending due to this, and they are leaving BlackBerry forever due to this, and BlackBerry is the worst company ever because of this. Give it up. Move on already. I like my Z10 exactly how it is. . . . everything else is just a bonus.

Everything else IS a bonus. When BlackBerry and developers eventually start cranking out the handful of headless apps that truly need it than I will just have the bonus of not having the app open in an active frame. Until then it's an active frame. So what? Affects nothing. People got to chill. It's not like there is never going to be headless apps ever.

+1million
Plus, my mom would be frustrated to no end if her phone asked if she wants to "run this app headless?". **facepalm** Please spare ME that aggravation.

I see the shortcomings and for the developers I really hope they get what they want. There is no need to put such harsh restrictions on headless apps. Since users can view high CPU and high memory consuming apps in 10.2 and there is even a nice graph over the past few hours... Users can decide if the app should run headless or be terminated. Maybe in permissions there can be an option to allow headless just like there are options to restrict apps from using GPS. As an IT professional I don't like saying this often, but give the power to the user and make it easy for everyone.

What it sounds like is they're taking an overly-cautious approach for the sake of security and battery life.

How do we know that where we are now is the end-point? Are we sure that these restrictions won't be loosened going forward?

I agree that this would be good news, but the prob (imo anyway) is that they don't say so . . if that is the case why not just say "hey, I know you're disappointed but we're being cautious and working toward it" . . I hope you and thunderbuck are right

A very well thought out response. I'm not happy either, brings back memories of the built for BlackBerry program. At the end of the day, any big name app needing this feature will have it, and probably slowly but surely the more popular apps written by us independent devs will get it as well.

But people are getting tired of patiently waiting for stiffs that should have been there day one. I understand that frustration and lack of trust. Giving people what they want is what will get us out of this mentality. that is the reason why android is so popular : they give you all the options and you decide which ones you want to use.

Posted via CB10

I think an article like this will ensure that this isn't the end-point. But I acknowledge the frustration of the dev community on this one! It seems like a fine line for BlackBerry to walk...

I hope BBRY can come to a better agreement with the Devs so that everyone can win specially us the consumers

Posted via CB10

Yep !!!
Proper and efficient software development and design normally ensures no two portions of code are this tightly integrated.

Hmm from what you are saying it seems there are sloppier devs that are playing fast and loose with their code. That doesn't surprise me given the width of the Mobile App Market.

So in effect if developers have been sticking with good coding practices making the move to headless apps really wouldn't be that painful.

Is it wrong for BlackBerry to expect a better quality app from a developer looking to use the "background" of your Phone? I mean if they made it super easy wouldn't it be more attractive to devs with nefarious means?

EVERYTHING IS A TRADE OFF PEEPS! Which is where the phrase be careful what you wish for comes from. :)

I agreed Headless implementation is crap. You literally have to recode your app just to run in background. I like the suggestion where if you want the back to go background just hide it from active frame and bring it back when you relaunch the app. Much like JAVA apps with background and foreground.

I for one will not even waste my time converting my apps to go headless. It is hard enough to understand the logic let alone doing the actual work. The worst part is there aren't any simple sample apps.

With Push headless apps there are only a couple of notifications that you can use and you can't make up your own. So apps like wallpaper changer you need to run in "forever" mode which requires approval from BB. Which sucks.

I'm not a Dev. But instead of complaining, I would rather provide solutions or alternative routes. So let the Dev provide alternative to the battery drain issues if what is BlackBerry is concerned about.

Posted via CB10

I love BlackBerry but if they keep being stupid, I won't get any blackberry anymore. Cause your idea of headless apps, shao128, is really nice and simple. Hope they will be reading these comments and change their minds and start giving us what we ask for !!!!

Posted via CB10

I'm somewhat stunned....I thought we would be seeing this implemented SOON. Already felt like it had been a while since it opened up to developers. This is nuts - BBRY just never seems to get it!

If it works the way suggested, doesn't that mean that every time we restart the phone, we'd have to open all these apps and manually hide them? Man, this sucks... headless apps was something I was REALLY looking forward to.

I thought that was the whole idea of putting an App Manager into 10.2 so you can see them running and shut them down if need be?

Wow, ppl time that's all, look at how much they changed in upgrades so far to accompany what we have been asking for, ex the choice to have dark theme,

Posted via CB10

This type of shit isn't going to get you more developers BlackBerry... You've done great things with BB10 don't drop the ball with this OS...

Posted via CB10

BlackBerry made a lot of effort to make the implementation more secure. It was not a quick hack, they chose the most difficult approach. Why? That is what differenciates it from the concurrents which allows everything. But that's also for a similar reason that the device is more secure. I agree that it has a price but on the other hand, and to be honnest, headless apps should be trusted. If the developer is not able to separate the logic from the UI, I do not trust the app. Complete freedom is good for hackers, not for productive devices.

You make a good point, but I don't necessarily agree with you. From what I understand, BlackBerry is making it insanely difficult to implement this feature such that nobody will use it. They have to loosen it up a bit, though I agree that applying to BlackBerry to have an application be able to run in the background is necessary.

--Q10 and Canadian all the way! Posted via CB10 on 10.2.0.1443.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT - PERIOD. Security? What security? Using the method outlined above, an app must be allowed to be in the BB app store, a user must agree to install, and must agree to start the app, when asked to close the app the user must then agree to allow it to run without an active frame, the user will also see a badge on the app showing the user that the app is still running, user may then choose to open and fully close the app.

Where is the security concern?

I swear some people just like to hear/ read themselves talking.

I love Blackberry and I'm not jumping ship, don't know much about the workings of apps (other than I like Shao's apps) However I am so damn disappointed in the way BlackBerry has and is now being run. There's more to this than we, the people can see and very unfortunately the various depts in BlackBerry don't seem to give a damn or have been so depleted by layoffs that they cannot manage output anymore. It's really puzzling watching Blackberry shooting itself in the foot, over and over.

Thanks for the explanation. Well done.

Typical Blackberry. They have not learned a thing since the day they approved the 9500 to go to market.

I've said this more than 1,000 times and am nauseated having to say it again: Blackberry is exactly where it should be based on everything its done. The sooner they disapear and cede the enterprise area to others who actually care about their users and developers, the sooner we will all be better off.

The beauty of free market economics at work. That being said, I would rather see them step up and become a true competitor. More competition benefits consumers.

Posted via CB10

Frustrating....... headless apps is something I would have expected from the hop, not reading blogs like this 8 months later.

CB10'n it.....via my Z

The people who are telling others that they are stupid for leaving the platform for such reason stupid, are stupid themselves! Why? Because it wasn't just the headless app situation that drove them away but an accumulation of things that BBRY dont even care to correct or at least admit they messed up! Mr. Ketchup man was suppose to be our savior but ended up being as bad as the 2 previous dumb a$$ CEO's. The management team is LITERALLY driving BBRY to the ground and they don't care since as long as they make the numbers they get their big a$$ bonuses! To top it all, they refuse to either talk, give precise details or even say the truth!

Everything they do is always "Coming soon" or "End of summer" or "Q1". Always very vague! Now what? Apologist are gonna tell me "You dont know how much work goes into this" or "If you think you can do better how about you try to go run this company" or something stupid like that.

Well to your information, I know alot about running a company and development of hardware products as well as software. And it is now OBVIOUS to me that BBRY management is doing this on purpose to kill the company and don't care either of their consumer nor the investors. And I have been a BB fan since their first pager back in 2000. At this point, I feel sorry and apologise to the talented people working there right now but im gonna say it anyway: I HOPE BBRY DIES SOONER THAN LATER TO AVOID SEEING THEM EMBARASSING THEMSELVES SOME MORE! Instead of shooting themselves in the foot and bleeding to death, how about a simple bullet in the head and be done with it!

Just tired of the stupid management lying to everybody's face!

From one of your biggest BB fan... Not anymore

Lmao @ Mr ketchup man haha

But seriously that was a well said rant. it is the painful truth that BlackBerry needs to address immediately, or prove all the doomsayers, fandroids and iSheep right.

Even sadder is the fact that apologists will still come and say "well you do a better job, then" "you don't know what it takes to run a company" etc etc... Sad

Posted via CB10

I'm sorry to hear that. Shao I adore your idea. BlackBerry really needs to listen to these ideas and implement them. They can't always think their way is the best way if nobody likes it. They can't afford to not please developers which in turn will please customers which in turn will please investors. I wish I could do more. I really do.

Anybody interested in a Z10 I'm done with BlackBerry first this crappy hardware now software issues good bye everyone !

From my Z10 A.K.A knight Rider.

Honestly, QML logic no longer running makes total sense to me. Your logic and UI SHOULD be split up, and QML is going to take way more memory than compiled c++ code

Posted via CB10

I am interested to see more of this developer debate about this topic and others. Hopefully there is a thread somewhere.

I was concerned about headless apps at the beginning, after 4 months with my Z10 I actually don't miss them, of course headless would be an improvement, but let the Blackberry go slow with this, if they open that box totally then you will have people complaining about battery life, about the phone getting laggish because one app is using a lot of CPU and memory, certainly they will be improving this feature in time, I don't think they don't know people want it or need it, but it could bring a lot of problems to the platform that will do more bad to the brand. Patience people, it is a new OS, my general feeling is that it is in the good track, maybe the have been overly cautious with this maybe they are right, write to them, let them know how much you need this feature. IMO not having this feature is not the end of the world, actually one of the reasons I don't like Android is that sometimes it has a life of its own and you feel like you are not in control of the device, maybe Blackberry is over compensating this and going extremely other way but still I feel with Blackberry in control of the device (don't get me wrong I think Android is an excellent platform is just my personal unlike).

Thanks for the feedback. I sincerely hope BlackBerry listens to developers and customers and implements quickly the necessary changes to headless apps. If not then this is just one more reason BlackBerry as a company is dead in the near future. Hear that BlackBerry? Act now or lose the opportunity to soon.

Posted via CB10

I don't understand why the 3mb limitation for RAM useage, I mean this phone has 2Gb for crying out loud, (2048mb for those counting). If RAM really is that precious, why not take up say 100mb of device space, and use that as virtual memory, that way you could have a lot of apps backgrounding without affecting core RAM useage in any significant way.

I understand that bb10 is from scratch but if your not going to consider the user then as a company your doomed!

From my Z10 A.K.A knight Rider.

I'm a little confused by the complaint about being forced to communicate between the UI and the background via the network stack. That's actually pretty common for inter-application communication in the desktop application world, especially in *NIX... and that's really what you have, two related applications talking to each other...

I suppose it's not programming 101, but I see where they're coming from, and I'm not sure "terrible" is the way I'd describe it.

Yeah most of the stuff I work with generally operates this way as well. Application talks to a port to talk to another application. Seems straight forward. Even if all the software is on the same device. Figure it to be common middleware design.

The #1 reason why I DO NOT use nice apps like Bebuzz etc. I do not want those kind of things running in active frames all the time. This is a really bad thing for them, I can't believe they treat the developers like that. This is one of those drains on the Blackberry Love tank.

I understand the frustrations to developer. I'm not a BlackBerry developer, but I have developed on other Platforms. I think what developers don't get is..... users don't care. it doesn't matter what hoops you have to jump through. We want a device and apps that just work with as little user direction as possible. I don't want to hide active frames or be presented with a prompt if your app is using too much battery. In reality every prompt is a huh? moment for most users. Make is simple with little or no direction needed. I don't need apps making my device slow that I don't even know about.

Posted via CB10

I guess this is the problem with posting stuff like this on CrackBerry. Almost every comment on here is useless banter that does not help anyone. As a developer I have to agree that the implementation of headless apps as-is does not work well. I was actually shaking my head at it when I read the blog post about headless apps. My reaction was "interesting...I'm not sure how this is going to work".

Anyway, I actually think that we should start a petition to BlackBerry possibly threatening to boycott the platform development if they do not commit to listening to developer feedback and improving the state of headless apps. We can try just a petition first, and then escalate it if it does not bring about any change. I also think that this post would have greatly benefitted from disclosing the names of the other developers that are impacted as it gives credibility to the op-ed.

Finally, all of the butthurt users have no place chiming in here unless they have written apps or want to provide constructive criticism to help the situation improve. Saying "I'm jumping ship!" or "F-U BlackBerry I bought two Z10 and now can't sell them" don't benefit anyone and have no place in here.

Posted via CB10

It's called venting. It's all extremely frustrating. If BlackBerry read any if the comments they might start to clue in. But if you are interested I have two z10s I will happily sell to you for testing units.

Posted via CB10

Finally, common sense.

Everyone 'venting' about how horrible it is they did it this way is making a complete ass of himself/herself.
So just because the app will run in an active frame like you're used to... your phone became nothing more but a paperweight? Your phone has been useless since the day you got it? Get real.

You knew this when you bought the phone and buying something in the hope a feature will ever be implemented the way you want it is just bad judgment on your part.

Whether HUB++ or whatever runs headless or not, I don't care, as long as it's vetted by BlackBerry to run with minimal battery drain so I get the best experience out of my phone. What's the big deal of having apps open in an active frame? Maybe there should be a way to hide them but seriously this does NOT ruin your BlackBerry phone and if you think it does then you need a reality check and switch phones cause BlackBerry isn't for you.

I'm sure you'll have better luck with Apple or Google cause they always listen to their users.

I don't disagree with you that far too many people are over-reacting here; but lets say I'm running hub++ and shao's superbar app and bebuzz and an led changer, all four nicely functional apps, now 4 of my 8 active frames are open which seems like it could be a problem for someone who multitasks, especially since if a 9th app gets opened one of these others would shut down.

Good reasoning, but running 9 apps at a time is overkill and you know it.
The apps you mention specifically are interchangeable with one and another so there is never a need to have them all open.
Besides headless apps are possible but they just require devs to code in a specific way for it.

btw in your example, Hub++, bebuzz and 'another led changer' all offer the same functionality.

That is the last straw. This company is clueless. I have a phone with mediocre third part apps and many virtually useless BlackBerry apps. I have 2 z10s for sale if anyone is interested.

Posted via CB10

And somehow the lack of popular apps eluded you when you bought the phone in the first place? Guess you're the clueless one...

When you buy you commit, when you commit you form expectation based on research, when expectations fall short, you switch.

Stop flaming and understand that people are upset...

I do understand people are upset, however most of them don't even know why as this won't change anything to the way they're using the phone now and in the future. I have yet to find a single post with a legitimate reason as to how this will impact their use or the functionality of the phone... You have 8 active frames in total and having all of these open is overkill, there never is a need for this. People who are complaining they wanted headless apps instead of active frames, fine they have a reason to but people screaming their BlackBerry all of a sudden became useless, those are the flamers...

That said, your logic does have merit and I agree, if expectations fall short, you switch, stop moaning.

you comment belies because the angry people are fighting for their dollar -- isn't that what the core of why we have jobs is? -- sustainability? And people that come by and just say switch and stop moaning are the ones make BBRY think there isn't a problem.

Your comments are just as reasonless -- they provide no bearing or help toward getting what other users would like to see in the OS.

Speaking of flamers :P -- Nice recent forum postings LOL

Seriously? Fighting for their dollar? I'm just not getting what's so horrible on the way they implemented this feature, cause it is in there. It's just implemented in such a way that some devs don't like it, while other do. It's an opinionated article, so please treat it as such, he even posted it under his dev name and not his editors name.

I'm glad you're following my forum posts :)

Cool Story Bro, opinionated or not dev's make apps. Judging by the fact there are not alot out there and Skype is still in preview -- and half the globe just got OS10.1.

Keep them happy, keep the user-base happy.

(Following your posts?!? heh)

You said it, dev's. Not one, but multiple. This opinionated article isn't exactly covering the entire dev community. Just cause one or two or who knows how many don't like it doesn't mean the rest of them don't either. That's why it's called opinionated.
I don't know what the rest of your post has to do with this article but whatever.

Keep it real Bro.

I prefer the live frames from the PlayBook rather than the "active frames" of bb10.

It could drain the battery if the app continue to run on the background but better apps could be made for bb10

Posted via CB10

Your proposal sounds perfect to me. Hopefully you can bring this to the attention of the proper people at Blackberry to implement it.

I've been waiting and thought we would finally get headless apps. But BlackBerry is really messing up and pissing people off like me. Why stay and support a company that doesn't listen to the end users. Active frames are nice. But headless apps should be our choice!! Not BlackBerry saying whether or not we can have them. Hope they listen to the developers and fix this fast!!

Posted via CB10

I think they should simply scrap the way they've implemented headless apps, and instead have it so all apps that can have active frames or be minimized to an icon in the active frame screen (perhaps at the bottom of the active frame panel). A long-press on an active frame could give you the option to minimize to an icon or close it, and a long-press on the minimized icon could promote to an active frame or close it. Just pressing on the minimized icon would open the app - and if it is merely a background task, it would show some UI to at least detail what it is doing. The icons at the bottom I'm talking about would be a grouping of icons of apps running in the background without an active frame (I'm imaging icons squished together without spacing or the border/background and without a text descriptor - so it is obvious it isn't the same as the app grid). That way you could easily see what is running. Perhaps even have settings on whether to allow an app to run like that or to force an active frame.

I'm confused too about why Android apps seem to be able to have background processes and such, but the native BB apps do not. In my idea above, I would include Android apps or processes in that too.

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