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Posted by sk8er_tor Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Agreed!!!!!

 
 
Posted by cas118 Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Not agreed!

I think that Kevin's assertion that Google should be to blame is correct. RIM needs to get on their case though.

The OS is CLEARLY set in the agent string for BlackBerry and PlayBook. Google should be able to identify this.

Looking at those stats, OS6+ phones and PBs are making a very respectable showing here at CrackBerry.

 
 
Posted by sk8er_tor Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Yes, but as Kevin said, even if it's Google's fault, RIM should be on them to fix it.

 
 
Posted by calyth Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

The android UA also says mozilla 5.0, mobile safari, with an Android subtype. So Google Analytics can differentiate the actual type of devices properly.

If RIM changes the UA so that it's distinct from mobile safari, many sites that can serve up mobile content would not show it for the BlackBerry webkit browser, unless site maintainers go out of the way to support the RIM specific UA.

If the device does not have the mobile safari identification, most BlackBerry 6/7 user would *not* be able to take advantage of the new browser, because either sites would default to the desktop version, which is tough to load because they consume more RAM; or they give a most barebones version of a mobile site, eg the 3 tiers of google+ (mobile, webkit mobile, desktop), which would do BlackBerry users an even bigger disservice.

It's possible to differentiate the BlackBerry UA from android / mac / iphone UA. If google analytics isn't identifying properly, then it's not an accurate tool for webmasters to use. Instead of pressuring RIM to change the UA for the detriment of their users, site owners should complain to google for their inaccuracies.

 
 
Posted by jonty12 Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

More importantly, who the heck is running Sea Monkey?! and is it worth trying?

 
 
Posted by cas118 Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

I use Sea Monkey when I need quick, painless browsing.

It's using the Mozilla engine but doesn't come with all of the bloat of Firefox.

Essentially, it's a niche browser though.

 
 
Posted by dentynefire Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Nice find. Should be fixed

 
 
Posted by mpscan Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

It's these small things ... things that RIM's competitors excel at ... which will eventually lead to their demise.

Sad. :(

 
 
Posted by yvpan1 Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

+1!

 
 
Posted by Ebscer Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Well that explains the over-sized interest in my site from Safari users...

 
 
Posted by bbpandy Friday, Oct 07, 2011 230 days ago

+1

 
 
Posted by danimalchil Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

WOW, this is pretty pathetic, but not surprising.

 
 
Posted by venox08 Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

I think this is because other Pages redirect to nicer/readable mobile pages by user agent and the most sites don't detect Blackberry. (had a pre 2 and never been redirected to mobile sites, sometimes good!). But if the browser says he is a safari the page will redirect (cause of the marketshare from iphone/ipod/ipad..)

 
 
Posted by Alphalucard Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

I reckon fixing this involves OS update for the affected phones/playbooks as the agent report is burned into each device's OS? Might be nice to see this on the next OS updates rollout. i know thats a very wishful thinking on my part given how things goes in RIM regarding software updates tho.

 
 
Posted by phillechill Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

It's something I noticed on our site too. Glad you took the time to write about it!

 
 
Posted by diegonei Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

My 9780 never shows in Google Analytics...

 
 
Posted by JasonM. Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

What do you expect? This is my Torch's user agent: "Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9850; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.11+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/7.0.0.362 Mobile Safari/5" LOL!

 
 
Posted by DustBow Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

No wonder developers aren't making apps for PB and developers/companies are dropping their support of current BB apps....This has been going on for at least 6 months, probably ever since the first OS-6 phones came out....not good for 2011 stats

 
 
Posted by mckillio Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

But the 9650 is on there, which is only OS6 correct?

 
 
Posted by jcarty Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Also runs OS 5.

 
 
Posted by ffejie Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Nope, my 9650 came with OS5. I had to upgrade it. They will still sell it to you with OS5 if you ask (or are a business).

 
 
Posted by Revyrah Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

This is a hell of a find, Kev.

 
 
Posted by bezerk Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

hey Rockmelt! probably only mee using it. lol.

 
 
Posted by ricking Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

RICHARD KING
CRACKBERRY KING
my question to kevin.... your site sells apps for bb... what took you so long to find this?????

 
 
Posted by Kevin Michaluk Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

I have a lot of other in-house metrics I can look at to get a sense of popularity of device (for example, just look at the action in the CrackBerry forums for individual devices), so I don't really rely on this particular report to the extent that I'm drilling down into it.

But I think most people running websites who use Google Analytics (which is HUGE #), would look at this to get a sense of the popularity of mobile devices visiting.

 
 
Posted by mss-ca Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Advice to RIM, learn from Apple Inc. When you steal a technology, hide the other guys tracks! Apple stole touch screen technology from companies like HTC, but they hid the evidence.

 
 
Posted by Malachi.2.15 Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Where are the playbooks on the list????

 
 
Posted by Kevin Michaluk Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

that's the point of this post. The PlayBooks are grouped into Safari / (not set) along with other BlackBerry 6 and BlackBerry 7 Smartphones

 
 
Posted by Juggalo20 Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

wow.... just wow.... i swear sometimes RIM as a company is suicidal....

 
 
Posted by bbpandy Friday, Oct 07, 2011 230 days ago

+1000

 
 
Posted by chartung Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

I was just looking into this. I wanted to see WHY I was unable to use hulu.com, and after some testing, I found that the javascript in the website searches specificlly Blackberry Playbook and of course I tested what it was and it said safari. I am trying to figure out how to spoof this.
PS, there was a playbook updated pushed out today.

 
 
Posted by bmmcpeek Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Great find Kevin, Hope this is fixed fast!

 
 
Posted by aft1981 Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

In addition to what Kevin pointed out, I would have thought an equally big issue is why does every individual BB device need to be broken out like that? How many iterations of iPhones are there, yet they all just get listed as "Safari/iPhone". If you add up the total data/visits of all the individual Blackberry devices that access any given site, and listed it as "Blackberry", it may well be greater than "Safari/iPhone".....if you get what I'm saying.

For example, if the website manager of say cnn.com looks at the google stats to see the top 10 browsers/devices that are used to access the site, "Safari/iPhone" could be at number 7 for example, with no BB devices in the top 10.....but number 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15 could all be individual BB devices, which when added together could place Blackberry above iPhone in the top 10......make sense?

Also, I've seen other misleading charts which show 'data usage' of mobile devices, often touted by Apple fans "ha, Apple has a 49% share of mobile data usage, but RIM is only at 6%" (last chart I saw were similar numbers, maybe off by a couple percent). Interesting figures yes, but in these always biased articles, I NEVER see mention of the fact that BB devices, by their very nature, are less data hungry....RIM compresses much of the data that is sent/received by our phones, so these raw figures are highly misleading.

Anyway, just my two pence worth :)

 
 
Posted by glassofpinot Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

I agree big time ! The split out results will reflect poorly.

 
 
Posted by meske Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

A similar problem is the PB browser being recognized as a mobile browser and forcing users to mobile sites. Even on the torch - many times, I want the whole thing. Don't force me to the mobile. But that's an individual site setting (although I'm sure the big CMS's that you all use have the logic built-in to redirect to the mobile site, if it exists).

 
 
Posted by DaedalusIcarusHelios Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

This site will tell you your user agent string: http://whatsmyuseragent.com/

If we could modify the user agent string, suddenly Hulu and other such sites could work (for PlayBook). RIM needs to make advanced browser settings available.

 
 
Posted by tekware Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Sadly, this doesn't even remotely surprise me.

 
 
Posted by kb2755 Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Who's browsing CrackBerry on a PS3?

 
 
Posted by bbpandy Friday, Oct 07, 2011 230 days ago

lol

 
 
Posted by Alec_Saunders Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Hey Kev,

This is a Google issue. Our user agent headers are correct, and coded that way in order to give our users the best experience on the web. As you know, we've got a killer HTML 5 experience. But if we didn't claim Safari / Webkit compatibility, users would see a dumbed down mobile version of the site only instead of the HTML5 site.

Cheers, A

 
 
Posted by JasW Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Oddly enough, on the OS 7 devices (though not for some reason on the OS 6 devices), we already get tossed over to dumbphone versions of certain sites. Examples are espn.com and nytimes.com.

Admittedly, this is the webmaster's or website developer's fault in not having their sites handle the OS 7 browser's user agent string properly, but it's related to what Kevin is talking about. I'll leave it to him to explain why, though.

 
 
Posted by timandmissy Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

I have to say it is GREAT to see you respond to issues like this on crackberry.com. As you know Blackberry has a very strong community with lots of insight. To know you're "keeping your ear to the street" gives all of us enthusiats a reason to be excited for the changes and future of the blackberry platform. Can't wait for devcon.

RIMPIRE STRIKES BACK

 
 
Posted by rjshahan Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Alec,
You should reach out to Google to get this rectified. It sets a terrible perception for BlackBerry device usage in today's market.
Thanks

 
 
Posted by Kevin Michaluk Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Hey Alec,

Ok, I get that. As I stated in the post, I think the user agent stuff on the new BlackBerry devices *is* reporting as you intended and I did put out there that I thought it might be something on Google's end to address.

But the most important thing being highlighted here are the consequences of how the reporting is done now. If you expect people to build BlackBerry apps for their sites (something end users want, despite the BB browser being pretty good), you have to realize then that the first place they look for prioritizing what apps to build is by looking to their analytics.  The fact that it is a Google problem doesn't make it not RIM's problem. You guys either need to work with Google to get that reporting correctly, OR you need to communicate this message to people who run websites. If it's a webmaster issue to deal with, the odds are it's not even going to appear as an issue to them as it's neatly reporting under Safari anyways (so there doesn't appear to be a problem - hence why this issue has gone unnoticed for so long). Allowing it to persist as it is now is not in RIM's best interest. 

Heck, looking at these analytics, despite the fact CrackBerry focuses on BlackBerry products, according to Google Analytics -- something webmasters put a lot of trust in -- I should be building our Android and iOS apps first before worrying about our BlackBerry apps. If the reporting was as it should be -- not attributed to Safari but consolidated under BlackBerry -- then of course BlackBerry would be the priority. On a site like CrackBerry, we're talking well over a million visits a month being classified as Safari instead of BlackBerry. (And to our readers, of course BB is our priority and we have some awesome plans for the CB mobile experience in 2012). 

Also, as an end user who owns smartphones and tablets on multiple platforms, I personally would rather get redirected to a dumbed down website site (which loads instantly and saves bandwidth) and then gives me a clear option to either return to full site or prompts me to download their app. I think a lot of people would agree with that (good idea for a poll to run here on the blogs).

That's my 36 cents anyways,

Thanks for chiming in. Cheers,

Kevin

 

 

 
 
Posted by Alec_Saunders Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Alec from RIM again. I assure, we're working on this, and thanks for the feedback.

I also understand that everyone wants to know more about how we're going to recruit more applications to BlackBerry. We'll be talking more about that at DevCon. Hope to see you there.

 
 
Posted by samab Friday, Oct 07, 2011 230 days ago

It's beyond just Google Analytics. We just had a mobile ad firm claiming that HP TouchPad having 4% of the tablet traffic --- where is the Playbook? Well, that mobile ad firm probably had no clue the Playbook traffic is grouped under some other obscure category.

RIM needs to go out and talk to these firms to educate them where RIM devices are going to report under.

 
 
Posted by bbpandy Friday, Oct 07, 2011 230 days ago

For me, it depends on the device I'm using.
If I'm using my:
9700: mobile ALL the time
9900: depends on the website
Playbook: Full website.

Too bad more websites weren't like http://bostonglobe.com/ That way it will show well regardless of your device...

Just my 36 cents ;)

[Quote]
Posted by Kevin Michaluk
Also, as an end user who owns smartphones and tablets on multiple platforms, I personally would rather get redirected to a dumbed down website site (which loads instantly and saves bandwidth) and then gives me a clear option to either return to full site or prompts me to download their app. I think a lot of people would agree with that (good idea for a poll to run here on the blogs).
[/Quote]

 
 
Posted by robertdusa Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Alec,

Your response to Kevin sounds an awful lot like buck passing. This isn't a Google problem, this is a CrackBerry Nation problem. With sliding stock prices, buyout rumours, and analysts proclaiming RIM dead in the water, you need to be as agressive as hell in order to keep the brand relevant!

Steve (RIP) didn't let the small stuff slide, and neither should RIM.

So please, pick up the phone tomorrow, call the GOOG and get it straightened out so people know without a shadow of a doubt that BlackBerry users ARE out there, and that we're visiting their sites.

 
 
Posted by br14 Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

It is a Google problem.

The user agent string clearly states BlackBerry as the OS. The fact Google uses the browser type to record analytics is the issue.

It shouldn't just be RIM with the problem though, Google themselves use Webkit. Except for themselves you can bet they syphon off the Android hits.

So maybe after all it's deliberate obfuscation by Google?

Having said that, with 70 million BlackBerry browsers out there, the decision to use Webkit in the user agent string could be a mistake. RIM might as well differentiate its browser and try and persuade sites to respond appropriately.

And the issue with all the different BlackBerrys in the data is that each device has differing capabilities - hence they inform the developer to maximise the site support. In practice not such a great idea, but born out of the usual inability to finish anything.

Perhaps the truth is RIM just isn't bold enough.

 
 
Posted by dentynefire Friday, Oct 07, 2011 230 days ago

i agree

 
 
Posted by olblueyez Sunday, Oct 09, 2011 228 days ago

I completely agree, RIM needs to try and force the web designers into catering to the Blackberry masses.

 
 
Posted by bbpandy Friday, Oct 07, 2011 230 days ago

Forget tomorrow! Call them TODAY!!!

 
 
Posted by bbpandy Friday, Oct 07, 2011 230 days ago

error

 
 
Posted by amirnabilkamelsaad Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

I hope my feedback would be of relevance to this topic and here it goes.
Since OS 6 and OS 7 seen the light of day, I started using news feeds for RSS to Crackberry.com and other websites which lead me to not visiting these websites for almost 5 months at a time.
Also the same thing applies to the Playbook, either GeeReader or Blackberry news with the same out come.
If these statistics are based on web browsing (which is a pain on anything but a computer...not every computer if I might add), that would explain why OS 6 and OS 7 are not high on the list.
To add more pain to suffering, you can't post any comments unless you are using a web browser or semi logged in (GeeReader Playbook) so that definitely is a let down when it comes to leaving comments and reading them.
This is my first time logged into a computer just to write this...cheers

 
 
Posted by Yvon Hawke Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

So would this be why when I pull up wow.joystiq.com it pulls up the main site and not the mobile site? It doesn't know I'm on a 9800 and I have manually enter a i. In fromt of every page url.

 
 
Posted by geralt Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

I noticed it on my own website too but .. it even did not surprised me. This is unfortunately reality. Situation around RIM reminds me situation around Palm not long before its end. Users on Forums like Crackberry cared more than company itself...

 
 
Posted by Juggalo20 Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Alec_Saunders (if he really works for RIM) just proved your point. While CrackBerry cries out in alarm, begging for a fix. Alec_Saunders (seemingling RIM) shrugs it off and says "not our problem". Kev made a great point, "just because it's Google's problem doesn't make it not RIM's problem"

Crackberry and it's users do seemingly care more about RIM than RIM does. Instead of the blame game, just do what it takes to fix it? Kay RIM?

 
 
Posted by br14 Friday, Oct 07, 2011 231 days ago

RIM can't fix this except by hobbling their own browser. They've taken the next best compromise.

It's a Google problem. Who knows, maybe even deliberate.

RIM can make representations to Google (and probably already have), but Google don't have to do anything.

The real answer for RIM is to create their own analytics based on activity via BIS and BES - but that's no minor task.

This does explain why BlackBerry always comes fairly low on the site hit lists - not just Googles.

 
 
Posted by Juggalo20 Friday, Oct 07, 2011 230 days ago

Google is no angle but I highly doubt they're in the business of intentionally making their services inaccurate. I'm sure if RIM pestered them enough Google would fix it. And if Google didn't.. Well I'm sure there's plenty of news outlets that'd jump on a "Google refuses to properly identify BlackBerry usage in it's Analytics service" story.

 
 
Posted by martinjdub Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

+1 - This is critical market data...who let this slip? Damn!

 
 
Posted by WillieLee Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

It's good to see Alec respond, but this is something that needs to be addressed. Many sites have reported on the near zero presence of BlackBerry devices on internet browsing and that only adds fuel to the negative fire.

 
 
Posted by bbpandy Friday, Oct 07, 2011 230 days ago

+1

 
 
Posted by herrbremerhaven Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Just wanted you guys to know I visit on my 9650 and I did upgrade to BB6. So you have at least one CB viewer using a BB6 platform.

 
 
Posted by BB-Bmore Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

From my 9670- BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9670; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.666 Mobile Safari/534.8+ And i would like to say it seems to me that Rim would benefit from some ambitious new employees like lets say ooo?/ Kevin who actually care about the brand, to replace people like this Alec guy who's not my problem attitude really ticked me off. Don't worry Rim your fans and supporters will be your backbone until you grow one!

 
 
Posted by br14 Friday, Oct 07, 2011 231 days ago

Alec gave you the facts. You can choose to get emotional (and therefore irrational), but the fact is RIM can't do much about this except damage your browser experience.

As in many aspects of engineering the final design is a compromise. Perhaps RIM chose the wrong compromise, because they put you first rather than Google Analytics.

 
 
Posted by artlane3 Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

+1

 
 
Posted by adamnygaard1 Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

I think RIM should maybe look into hiring someone on the CB team as a Consultant or something along those lines. CB has its finger on the pulse of what is going on in the real world with BlackBerry and has a real love for the brand and genuinely cares about its future. I think that is what they need, someone with a real passion for BlackBerry and someone who really wants to see them be the best they can be. No more of this "it's not our problem" crap, make it your problem and fix it. Are you happy with being a corporate communication device (and even that is fading), or do you want more? Are you happy being #3 or #4? Do you even want to be #1? If not, give the job to someone does, someone who wants to see a BlackBerry in the hands of every man woman and child in the world. C'MON RIM GET WITH IT! WE ARE PULLING FOR YOU!

 
 
Posted by frankzaman Thursday, Oct 06, 2011 231 days ago

Anyone who has read Alec's blog or twitter feed will see that he is a BIG supporter of QNX/RIM. Geesh, give the man some time and some credit for reaching out to this community. How many other RIM bigshots do you see posting on these forums?

RIMPIRE STRIKES BACK!

 
 
Posted by CrackBerryHarry Friday, Oct 07, 2011 231 days ago

It's amateur hour...

 
 
Posted by wellard Friday, Oct 07, 2011 231 days ago

This is how my PlayBook is reported on my own website:-

Language: en_GB
Country: UNITED KINGDOM
Screen Area: 1024x600
OS: MAC
User Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (PlayBook; U; RIM Tablet OS 1.0.0; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.11+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/7.1.0.7 Safari/534.11+

 
 
Posted by TheoRadu Friday, Oct 07, 2011 231 days ago

Hi Kevin. You're right, this shouldn't happen, but it's not RIM's fault. WebKit is an open source project founded by Apple and the user agent string has to be in that format. It's the same for any other device having a WebKit browser (http://www.gtrifonov.com/2011/04/15/google-android-user-agent-strings-2/).
The problem is clearly the way Google Analytics works. For any other device out there it manages to identify the right platform. Also, if you look at the user agent string of Apple's products you will find the OS version and device name in there. Yet, Google identifies them all like a single platform. It should do the same thing for BlackBerry devices...

 
 
Posted by zensen Friday, Oct 07, 2011 231 days ago

what is painful is the amount of 'idiots' using safari :P

 
 
Posted by olblueyez Sunday, Oct 09, 2011 228 days ago

Alex, what have you done to get this fixed? Have you picked up the phone yet?

 
 
Posted by andgee Sunday, Oct 09, 2011 228 days ago

If Rim started to point out publicly what was happening and that google was not reporting correctly then unless google want people to start doubting their analytics and what its teling them im sure suddenly they would find a way to report the os 6 and 7 devices etc. While they think RIM and more importantly website providers and advertisers ae not worried then they will not lift a finger.

Mention it at Devcon mention it in public interviews with major tech blogs and what have you. They always want a new slant and twist on things. At the moment Apple love is at a peak but look at just before the Sad news of Steve Jobs passing away (may he rest in peace) the media were looking for a reason to kick Apple as it looked like they had let the Iphone inovation slip...

Bulid them up and knock them down if you let the media have access to some stats and examples of whats happening im sure things can be changed..

Everyone who cares needs to retweet this and facebook and of course plus one it

 
 
Posted by CDM76 Tuesday, Mar 13, 2012 73 days ago

Once thisis fixed lets get ALL Blackberry stats together. I dont see separate stats for iPhone 3, iPhone4, Samsung Galaxy, Samsung Galaxy II, etc. All Apple are lumped together, all Android are lumped together. All Blackberry devices should be lumped together too !!!

Lets fix this asap as its KILLING BLACKBERRY !!!!

 
 
Posted by tonyrenier Tuesday, Mar 13, 2012 72 days ago

I prefer Opera to the Browser on my OS 5 Tour. I wonder how that is reported. On my Playbook I have used blackberry's browser. I visit Crackberry at least 3-5 times a day, though this post is on my PC at work.