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Posted by R1cE Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Kevin you can open the tray by clicking on the bar or by simply scrolling down. Glad to see you still poured your heart into the review, even though I am suspecting you copied and pasted some of it from the 9700 review. Good job as always! :)

 
 
Posted by Kevin Michaluk Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

hmm.. scrolling down doesn't open the tray on 6.0.0.285. Was just about to load the latest onto my replacement 9780. what version are you seeing that on?

scrolling up to the nav bar and clicking is still two steps... though granted so is clicking once on the menu key then moving your thumb back to the trackpad. but i still want a single click to launch the tray :)

 
 
Posted by CrackUK Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

From my experience a simple scroll down on the trackpad will not open the tray, you have to give a fast swipe down the trackpad.
Anyway thanks for a well written review.

 
 
Posted by Kevin Michaluk Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

HUH. Well look at that. Hard swipe down does do it.  That's awesome.  Sooo...  yeah, that's not really intuitive I guess as in three weeks on the 9780 and I never actually noticed that.  Better go edit my review and make a note of that. 

I guess it's that issue of getting stuck in your ways... I'm so used to hitting that button that once it was gone I didn't really discover that other way. 

I'm suck a rookie! :p  Might have to make a dedicated blog post on that one as a tip. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 
 
Posted by mkye86 Wednesday, Dec 08, 2010 441 days ago

Hey that's great this works on my 9700 as well.

Thanks!

 
 
Posted by flyonawall Monday, Dec 20, 2010 429 days ago

Kevin, don't feel bad. I've been running 6 on my 9700 since the first leak and didn't know this until the other day when I had a co-worker that just got his 9780 show me. I was stunned to find that I could do the same on my 9700 (now on build 418).

I'd sum up the comparison between devices, though, with the question of whether you're going/wanting to run OS 6. Although you can run it on the 9700 it's PAINFUL as you constantly hit your head on the 256 MB RAM ceiling. I'm running about 1/4 of the apps I was on 5.0. And the kicker that's tempting me to go back is that Viigo doesn't run (properly) on OS 6 (and no, the new Social Feeds app doesn't even come close to comparing to Viigo. Very disappointed RIM has apparently killed off one of the best BB apps out there). The browser is the only thing keeping me on 6. It seems like the 418 build fixes a few of the memory leaks so we'll see how it goes, but I'd say the extra RAM is all but a requirement for OS 6. I don't see RIM (or at least the carriers) posting an actual 9700 OS 6 update for this reason.

 
 
Posted by VZWRocka Thursday, Dec 23, 2010 426 days ago

Yep, remember the 8330 Curve which technically supported OS 5.0, but only one or two carriers ever actually released a build for it because it may have worked but didn't work well. It slowed the phone down and you had to run fewer apps due to memory restrictions.

 
 
Posted by jzajac Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

You ever have one of those moments where you read or hear something and then can not remember how you previously performed the task that you just heard about? Reading the 'scrolling down' advice was so simple yet genius that I can no longer remember if I clicked the title bar every time or not... I feel like I was a full time clicker, so just in case I was thanks for this post!

 
 
Posted by jzajac Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

I'm on a 9650 running 6.0.0.333 for what it's worth.

 
 
Posted by SnoopTodd Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Yay! You did it! And sort of on time depending which calendar you use! :). Great review, worth the wait.

 
 
Posted by cbaboy88 Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Great job !

As a blackberry addict .. Ive bought 9700 on 25/11/2009 and 9780 on 1/12/2010 and i would purchase any upcoming bold series phone even with minor improvements!

thnx

 
 
Posted by Dodger52 Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Kevin,
The blackberry Torch does not use the same CPU as the 9700. The torch uses a Marvell PXA940, built using the smaller 45nm process instead of the older PXA930

Technoligy Analysis website UBM-techinsight has discovered this.

And RIM has told engadget.com that the Processor in the Torch is of a newer generation.

And i really don't like that you deleted my earlier post :(

Also according tot the leaked training slides at BGR.com the 9780 uses a different CPU as the 9700, not sure if it is the PXA940 though...

 
 
Posted by Kevin Michaluk Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Dodger, I shot you a quick email. Had a typo in the review... meant to say the 9780 uses the same processor as in the Torch, which is CLOCKED at the same 624MHz as is the same as the 9000 and 9700 were clocked at.

I know it's a different chipset though and speak to such - they actually upgraded it not with the Torch, but with the Pearl 3G, which was the first to have the WiFi N and upgrade the video recording to 640 by 480. Then that went into the Torch and now the 9780.

Sad that it still lacks Open GL support though. You'd think that since the upgrade did happen, they would have addressed it that time. I thought RIM promised us Open GL back at DevCon, shortly after the original 9700 was announced. 

 

 
 
Posted by Bla1ze Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Newer generation, same speed. Still clocked for 624mHz. In reality, the difference is only there to make better use of the more graphic intense portions of the OS which aren't really all that intensive over previous versions. If anything the newer processor, although clocked at the same speeds sucks back battery life faster. As you can tell by using a Torch (rather, trying to use) for a full day. In terms of the OS, the only noticeable thing is the reboot times.

 
 
Posted by Dodger52 Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

The PXA940 actually uses a smaller more energy efficient production processo (45nm) the reason that the 9800 gets empty more quickly is the fact that it has a smalle battery a much bigger and brighter screen, and more intensive graphic features Considering all this the torch is relatively energy efficient.

 
 
Posted by Fr3lncr Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Kevin, sorry but the 9780 doesn't have 'N' wifi. We verified it in the forums:
http://forums.crackberry.com/f219/does-9780-have-n-standard-fi-548669/

Plus, RIM's site only shows 'b/g':
http://us.blackberry.com/smartphones/blackberrybold/#!phone-specifications

If you could show a screenshot of it showing 'N', please do so.

Thanks!

 
 
Posted by Kevin Michaluk Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Thanks for the comment. I'm looking deeper into this. For now, I removed the N stuff from the review.

It's funny you mentioned the US BlackBerry site as listing the 9780 as not showing N. I actually flagged that as an error to RIM to look at. It just makes no sense that the 9780 wouldn't get WiFi N, considering the Pearl 3G and Torch 9800 have it. Makes zero sense for it not to have it. It makes no sense also for RIM to leave it off once other devices are getting it.

 

 
 
Posted by Fr3lncr Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Don't get me wrong, I wish it had 'n' too as I liked it on my Torch so when I saw your unboxing last month, I picked one up and noticed it didn't have it. That's when I started the thread to make sure.

Interestingly, some in the thread stated they did have 'N' but theirs were pre-release versions.

And, yeah, don't know why they didn't give it especially since the Torch and Pearl have it.

Oh well... what are you going to do.

Cheers... and keep up the good work!

 
 
Posted by Kevin Michaluk Wednesday, Dec 08, 2010 441 days ago

Ok, just did my DIGGING... and man oh man, is it depressing....

Bold 9780 definitely does not have N, which is really stupid to me, considering both the Pearl 3G and Torch have it and this is basically the same chipset.

Word is though that the 9780 was so closedly based on the 9700 that upgrading to n was not easily done on existing architecture so RIM left it out :(

 
 
Posted by bigspender339 Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

thank you kevin! i HATE the 9780. HATE.

if you are a veteran bb user, do NOT do NOT do NOT get the 9780. It's not the phone, but BB6 is just NOT suited for this for factor as it stands atm. the 9700 is the best phone i have ever used so it's quite a shame that it's direct successor is the worst. Everything kevin said about accidental tray shifting and the meaningless notifications bar holds true. Also, i don't see the point of those 5 trays. If i visit something "frequently", it is a "favorite", and if it is a "favorite" it will probably be on the top row of my menu, so really the frequent and favorite trays are useless. additionally, i don't need a media and downloads tray when i have DEDICATED folders for them!. RIM trying to go the Apple/Android way is really disappointing as it takes away the core blackberry experience.

Again, DO NOT get the 9780 if u are used to and love the 9700. you will be disappointed.

 
 
Posted by Kevin Michaluk Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Yeah, it's kind of sad. When I went to exchange my 9780, I went back to my 9700 for the day.  All I could think was how much quicker it was to use (in terms of homescreen experience) and that if I only had the WebKit browser (and maybe universal search too) I'd be so happy. 

 
 
Posted by bigspender339 Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

You know, I'm actually not high on the whole Universal Search thing. Well, actually I'm not happy with the way it's set up. When I type something on the homescreen I am used to a near instant result from the phonebook, and I think that's how it should be. I would be much happier if US was something you could conveniently go to on the home screen (which it is) and THEN search the phone. And if you disable said feature, you are left with app shortcuts, which are equally annoying. I don't get why typing something automatically pulls up US when there is a US icon on the homescreen! What say you?

 
 
Posted by Kevin Michaluk Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Well... it depends...

I pretty much have all of the contacts I talk to regularly saved to Speed Dial. S 95% of the time, I don't need to use the address book for placing a call off the homescreen. And for SMS I normally just go to the SMS app (i usually have my most active conversations there and open with active contacts).  And for composing emails, I normally enter the app first and then compose from there too.  

So as long as I'm in that work track, Universal Search is good from the homescreen is good. 

But you're right.. the instantaneous reponse of the contacts is a nice as it is.  It's almost like you need a way to easily toggle to Universal Search.  Hit the space bar before typing something from the homescreen, etc.  And even though the icon is there, I don't like having to scroll up on the trackpad and click an icon to evoke it. If you're about to type on the keypad, there needs to be a button to toggle US. Needs more settings for sure.

 
 
Posted by bigspender339 Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Okay so I need your advice. I am seriously (and I mean SERIOUSLY) considering buying a 9700 again. Like I'm about to do it tomorrow. Do you think the next software update for tmo will satisfy a user like me? Or do u think that no software update can possibly satisfy a bb addict spoiled by the 9700? Honest opinion!

The only thing working for the 9780 right now is it's support for upto 32gb micro sd memory. i am using a 32 gig cause i have a lot of music. (though i should add here that i also don't like the new media player as the cursor skips without being pressed, u only have to highlight it. when the phone is in my pocket playing a song it often skips through the song because the trackpoad rubs up against my pocket!)

Moreover,how soon do u think it will come?

 
 
Posted by Kevin Michaluk Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Hmm... tough call.  I think a 6.1 upate is probably a few months away. Assuming RIM is still working on it (who knows, maybe everybody is working on getting the BlackBerry Tablet OS into phones now - but RIM has lots of people so assume some are still working on BB6 improvements!).

I think Theme Builder 6 should hit sooner though, and from there it'll take a day for a theme to hit that kills the homescreen views. With that issue solved, then I think sticking on the 9780 is worth it for the web browser alone. 

good luck in the decision

 
 
Posted by av8ryxx Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

DO NOT wait for the update to 6.0 on the 9700. I really think the new OS needs that extra bit of memory to run properly. I tried to run 6.0 on my 9700 and ditched it after a few days (I know leaks can be buggy). The only reason it lasted a few days was I really wanted universal search to work but the hardware just couldn't keep up.

The comments Kevin made about the scrolling stuff on the home screen frustrated me to no end. I had the same problems of over scrolling to the left or right, etc. When I had my Storm, I always ran an app that allowed me to disable the screen tilt... would be nice for something similar to stop the scrolling to be available on 6.0 for non touch screens. OS 6.0 just doesn't feel right on the 9700, it needs a touch screen.

If you must upgrade, I would just take the 9780 with the better specs and hope for a theme or some apps that will allow you to tweak it to act more like a 9700 (as sad as that sounds).

Anyway, my humble opinion...good luck making a decision.

 
 
Posted by Diggs31 Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

I'm a Bold 9650 user who switched to app shortcuts, not because automatic US annoyed me but because I'm used to it. I'm not understanding what's wrong with US when if you just start typing you're gonna get to that contact anyway...can you further explain what the problem is because I feel like I'm not getting it

 
 
Posted by Fr3lncr Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

I sold my 9700 just before the 9780 came out thinking it would be better. Now I wish I didn't even though I sold it for a good price. I'd go back to the 9700 but they sell it for more than the 9780! (Well, $50 more).

I've been using my old 9000 until I can figure out what I will do. Maybe buy a used 9700 to keep me going until the next round of Bold's. :-(

 
 
Posted by Chriz Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Thank you Kevin for the great Review.
And after reading this i think the 9780 is my next BB. But...Who needs OpenGL on such a small Device? You know the Name PlayBook Kevin? ;-)

 
 
Posted by Jerry Hildenbrand Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

I'll pass on the phone, but that's one helluva review Kevin. Nice job.

 
 
Posted by Yandar Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

An honest review Kevin. Just the one obvious typo :-

I really like being able to preview my upcoming calendard appointments from the preview, but I find for messages themselves I don't really use it - if I have emails or tweets or anything else, I'm pretty much heading straight for the app as soon as my LED light blinks.

You have a D on the end on calendar.

 
 
Posted by Kevin Michaluk Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

fixed! i'm sure there are many more typos than that... by the time i get through typing a novel of a review like this i have zero energy left for proofreading. just like to hit publish and fix on the fly :)

 
 
Posted by phone9 Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Thanks for the review, this was also useful to us CDMA users trying to decide to wait or not. I also find the double-click of app key annoying, like to just click that once and see as many of my most-used apps as possible.

 
 
Posted by hunoosh Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Great Review Kevin! Thanx. I am patiently waiting for Att to get it if they are even going to get it. I love my Torch for now but miss my 9700 dearly!

 
 
Posted by kmbro90 Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

For Christmas I wanted to buy my dad a Bold (he's currently using an old 83xx Curve) but I can't decide which one now. I could buy a 9700 off contract for a good price, or I could get the Bold 9780 on contract.

What would you recommend?

 
 
Posted by Kevin Michaluk Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Hmm.. tough call.  Once Theme Builder comes out there'll be themes that don't have the homescreen views, which will solve what I consider to be the biggest issue with the experience. So 9780 isn't a bad choice.

But if in six to eight months we see a touchscreen Bold, then that'll be the one you really want to sign a contract on. So a cheap 9700 off contract till then isn't a bad idea. Maybe that is the way to go...

 
 
Posted by kmbro90 Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Awesome, thanks for the reply!

 
 
Posted by kevindharner Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

is RIM ever going to increase the built in memory? I mean come on 512mg

 
 
Posted by ubizmo Wednesday, Dec 08, 2010 441 days ago

Why? How many people are running out of memory with 512 MB?

 
 
Posted by diegonei Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

"9700+512MB+5MP camera=9780" ? Nope, not right.

"9700+512MB+5MP camera+WiFi N=9780" That guy is a genious? He can't even do the math right... :p

 
 
Posted by GG1 Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Very Nice review Kevin. Have to say its one the best and well thought reviews I have read. You might want to change "card dashboard" to "car dashboard" when speaking of battery door finish.
Again nice review and couldn't agree more with everything about it.

 
 
Posted by Kevin Michaluk Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

typo fixed. thanks for the kind comments!

 
 
Posted by GG1 Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

You're welcome. ..Loved the BMW analogy.

 
 
Posted by Brazen9000 Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Wonderful review.

So gutted though you fence sat on the Torch v 9780! I'm buying one or the other next week :) I used your hierarchy of needs, weighted them, awarded points and came out with them equal. I decided that when your review came I would make the decision based on it. Looks like I'll be tossing a coin :)

 
 
Posted by Karlos349 Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

I totally agree with the swiping a little too vigorously and ending up on the text view. I do the exact same thing when quickly scrolling to my message icon.

I also am seeing a lot of issues when you turn the font size up. After doing this I find that doing spell check on emails causes the suggestions to pop up under the screen so you can only see half of the first result.

On the upside, I’m LOVING the swipe down to show the full tray, this was driving me CRAZY. I hadn't realized how instinctive clicking the BlackBerry button had become.

Great review as always!

 
 
Posted by spegs Wednesday, Dec 08, 2010 442 days ago

Yes, the side swipe is sooo annoying. And then I have a tendancy to get lost in the tray and not know which way to swipe to get back the fastest!

Also, that down swipe, thank you. I did it once by accident and could never figure out how I did it. I was trying to swipe down, but was never going fast enough.

Loved my old them on my 9700. Can't wait for themes for the 9780!!

 
 
Posted by Diggs31 Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

I'm not a GSM head but I have a lot of friends with the 9700 so I thank you Kevin for this review so I know what to tell them about the 9780 when they ask me.

On a somewhat separate and yet somewhat related note, has anyone else noticed that hard swipes within messages takes you to the next message? I can't remember reading that anywhere and I just accidentally "discovered" a few minutes ago.

 
 
Posted by trini_pirate Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

Sorry but I can't waste my upgrade and go from 9700 to 9780. Nexus S here I come!!

 
 
Posted by luqe Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

What about Automatic Font Size Adjustment (AFSA)
is it exist on 9780 device ???

 
 
Posted by briswolf Tuesday, Dec 07, 2010 442 days ago

I think it's really sad that RIM are missing opportunities to put out some great products. They obviously know how to make a phone in terms of hardware, I don't think anybody anywhere can argue with that, but when it comes to the software running on the phone I think they are just missing the mark. I think OS6 just makes things worse - the only reason I can see for using OS6 over OS5 is the browser - the rest of that awful OS is just there to pander to touchscreen devices like the torch. If I wanted a touch screen device I'd get an iPhone or an Android phone - the only reason I am using a BB is for that keyboard. Ergo RIM, please keep my OS snappy!

- Get rid of this menu->open tray nonsense. It is complete nonsense to make me click twice to get into the tray.
- Get rid of the views nonsense.
- Get rid of all animations. They just slow things down. Obviously trying to make consumers happy here. Get your target demographic sorted out please.
- Bring back the old full screen app list - it is much nicer from a visual standpoint IMO.
- Put the profile icon where it used to be on the home screen (i.e. top left: actually navigating to it on OS6 is now harder, on OS5 you could just swipe left then swipe up, click and press "A" for All alerts off, or "N" for normal. Now on OS6 you have to go up two spots then left - it isn't as instant and I really have to concentrate to get to it).
- Bring back spacebar to toggle flash setting in the camera app - why would you remove keyboard shortcuts I use every single day!

Lastly, RIM, here is what you need, nay MUST do if you want to stay in the smartphone game. Get rid of BIS. Yep, you read that right, get rid of it! The other guys who are killing you (Apple and Android) don't have BIS, and their web browsing is SUPER fast because of it. Maybe it is because I live in Australia - but quite often BIS browsing (i.e. not hotspot browser) just doesn't work for me, I have to try many times and in the end I will just do a google search for something and put the phone back in my pocket, getting it out minutes later to find it has finally gone where I wanted it to go. This whole argument that BIS is good because it does away with managing APN, direct TCP with carriers etc is nonsense obviously because all my friends with iPhones have never heard of APN settings so it seems this day and age it is all handled for you. Also it is now the future and data is cheap(er than it used to be) so you don't really have to compress my emails and web browsing to save a few bytes if it means my browser doesn't function at all. You can keep BES because it actually serves a useful purpose, but please, PLEASE, get rid of BIS, at least as far as web browsing is concerned.